Interview with Jamie Dodds about Lauriestone

INTERVIEW WITH JAMIE DODDS OF LEEDS ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES DURING HIS TIME SPENT IN A LAND AND HOUSING CO-OP COMMUNE IN SCOTLAND.


Hey Jamie,

So, the project we are working on (and my art practice in general) is based around notions of work and play. ie what is work, what is play, can play be productive? Can work ever be good? Etc.

To this end I'm writing an essay about industrial utopias in the early-mid 19th century and about plans for post industrial utopias in the current era. I'm sure your well versed with the notion that we are on the brink of a huge change in economics and production that requires a re-evaluation of what we do and our attitudes to our quality of daily life.

So, with that in mind I just wanted to get some idea of your personal experience in the commune. I'll type out a few questions below that you can respond to (or not) as you like. Feel free to add stuff or go off on whatever tangent you like. Then we can carry on saving and sending the document to each other if necessary, like a real conversation. Wacky.

Can you give me a basic outline of the commune including all the basic details; name, location, origins and history etc?

Jinkies, you could write about this alone! The commune is called Laurieston Hall, except it isn't really a commune anymore, it's now a land and housing co-op, at least thats what a resident would tell you. Anyway, the commune is called Laurieston Hall and it is located in South West Scotland, near a small town called Dumfries.

The Hall itself is a huge old manor house type place. It was built by an old Scottish laird (or lord if you prefer), as a hunting lodge. It is a massive and impressive building that is quite over aweing and of course this I imagine is what the laird wanted, to impress his guests who came to go hunting with him. The building itself has over 75 rooms and a tower at the back, also there are gardeners cottages, outhouses, caravans and converted stables all of which are lived in.

There are acres of land attached to the Hall that include several fields an extensive patch of amazing woodland, part of a loch called Woodhall Loch, a walled garden and a lawn complete with swings and a tree house.

The commune itself is well established and has been there for over 30 years now. It was bought outright by a small collection of folk from London for around £25.000. The group were linked to each other through the feminist movement of the time. The Hall had been used as a hospital in world war 2 and this carried on for many years, there are still folk alive in the village of Laurieston who used to work there in the days when it was a hospital. So the commune has been there a long time and though there is only 1 of the original group there a lot of the residents have been there a long time. Which in my opinion plays its part in the longevity of the commune.

And what was the population when you were there? How long do people stay there on average (if there is an average) months, years, decades? Is it common that there are families that have been started within the commune by members that didn’t know each other outside of Laurieston?

Okay, so there were 19 adults and 8 children (children being aged 16 and under) who were co-op members whilst I was there. Also there were 11 adults at various times on long stays and 5 children. On top of that there is a collection of individuals who stop for short stays on a regular basis who are friends with the Hall. All guests have to have a nominated person at the Hall who is their 'host', that person must put a note on the board about their guest(s) indicating how long they will be stopping and where. So even when my girlfriend or family came it was considered polite to let people know, it also serves as a way of booking a room so nobody else’s guest gets put there, and that kind of thing.

Laurieston is quite open about the fact that they prefer people who want to be members to want to stay and have some vision or commitment to the place. So once a person or persons become a member they usually hang around a while. One family after becoming members had left 1.5 years later, though it was clear this family were loved, respected and missed; it was also clear that people weren't happy about the short commitment to the Hall. There is a caucus of people who have been there 20 years or so and, as mentioned, one original member. I can't see these people moving anywhere now and I know that some of them plan to be buried there; they already have permission and everything. Shortly after I left a family that had been there (in one form or another) for 14 years decided they were leaving. That was a big shock to us all (even me)! I had spent many a time hanging out with all the family members and Laurieston will no doubt struggle without them. But from what I've experienced the more transient style members average about 5 years there.

As for families starting within the commune, well yes quite a bit of that has definitely gone on over the years. There are 4 established couples who all met each other at Laurieston, but monogamy isn't really practiced by the majority of the commune. But like I say, people there are older now, I bet there was some right old swinging in the seventies! However of them 4 couples, 2 have children. There is also a younger family there, one of their member was born and raised there, then went off to university and traveled round the world and all of that. But now is back there raising his own family. His mum still lives there too.

How did you find out about it and what was the remit for participation?

I found out about it through my family. My dad has a love for juggling and he went there on a circus skills week and realised it was a great place to take kids. So the following year took my sister and her kid. And I went with them the following few years and like the rest of my family, fell in love with the place.

The remit for participation is a little more complex.

It is usual when a person wants to become a member of the Hall that they will write a letter expressing an interest and then that person (or peoples) will be invited to come on a maintenance week. The Hall has 3 maintenance weeks a year when people come and stop at the Hall and spend all week patching it up.

If after this you still want to become a member you write another letter and get invited for a long stay. When you come for a long stay you get appointed a guardian angel (or 2 or 3, in my case 2) that support and guide you through your stay. A long stay is a period usually of at least 3 months.

Then you can apply for a joining period, which again lasts at least 3 months and again supported by guardian angels. Then you become a full member. Its quite a lengthy process.

So that's how you join if that is what you mean by remit for participation.



So do you see the maintenance as a kind of 'initiation' to see if that person could hack it, or would fit in with the lifestyle? Who do the letters go to and does everyone that sends a letter get invited to a maintenance week, or are there characteristics they try and identify in the letter, or a screening process?

Maintenance serves many functions at Laurieston. Some big projects that preserve the Hall are reserved for these weeks these include; renovating the eves (a section gets removed revamped and replaced every year over the course of the three different weeks), the old lead electricity wires get replaced, roofs replaced and every single chimney gets swept. To live at Laurieston is to live in fear of the dreaded chimney fire, there is inevitably one a year and it is the consequence of burning wood in chimneys designed for coal (hence the chimney sweeping). Also the commune really comes together and works as one over these weeks eating, working and relaxing together.

Also it is some peoples preferred way to holiday there, if you go on a maintenance you will hang out with the residents a lot more and a lot more intimately than any other people centre event. And yes if you want to go for a long stay it is the start of the screening process.

What did a normal day entail (if there was such a thing)? Were routines common or deliberately avoided? Did you find any old habits difficult to kick?

Well, there is and there isn't a routine to Laurieston Hall (make sense of that!). There is more of a weekly routine than a daily routine. The daily routine is go to bed early and get up early. But I must explain the principle of work-share if you are to understand the routine.

Work-share is the currency by which Laurieston runs. It is expected that as a long stay visitor, a person on their joining period or as a full member that you will work 2.5 days a week for the community (it is also expected that you will partake in 1 wood trip a week). This is kind of made easier by having a structured week.

Monday; wood trip in the morning, co-op meeting in the afternoon.
Tuesday, gardening in the morning.
Wednesday, land work.
Thursday, maintenance work.
Friday, wood trip in the morning, tidy communal areas in the afternoon.

So you could structure your week and do 2.5 days worth of work by slotting into that routine. However, on top of this; cows needed feeding and milking, chickens needed feeding and eggs collecting, pigs needed to be fed, cheese needed to be made and machinery maintained.

However for 6 months of the year (the summer months if you like), the commune runs a people centre, which serves as an income generator for those who live there, the staffing of which certainly throws a spanner in the works for the above routine. Also do wood trips and co-op meetings count as work-share? There is no definitive answer to that question.

The habit I found hard to kick has to be my love of getting drunk and staying up late and smoking, which happened a fuck of a lot less at Laurieston, but still had to be done!



I'd like to know a little more about the structure and nature of the co-op meetings if possible. Were there particular people that headed the meetings? What kind of topics came up for discussion? Was every single member of the commune obliged to be present or was it voluntary? With this in mind what was the attendance like?

Well co-op meetings were held as good as every Monday afternoon and every Monday a different resident takes it in turn to facilitate a meeting. That works out at about 2 meetings a year each. After every meeting the following weeks facilitator puts up the agenda for their meeting on the notice board, that stays on the board until Friday lunch time. This gives people time to read the agenda and add to it, if you add an agenda item you must also leave a note about this item explaining as much as possible what it is you are proposing.

Whilst I was living at the commune the bird flu panic hit the nation, so the maintenance group in conjunction with the chicken group proposed the building of indoor feeding/living areas for the chickens in anticipation of being forced to do this. We made a preliminary design and worked out costs, which weren't very much. This was agreed and the week we began work there were at least 2 cases of bird flu in Scotland and it was all over the news. Obviously it was all for nothing in the end. However it was straightforward and inexpensive.

One topical discussion was the construction of a new disabled ramp. This ran on for weeks! Which door should it go on, what should it be made out of, should it be permanent or removable? Anyway it was decided that we at least agreed in principle that we should build another. Then the following week a person who hadn't been at the previous meeting decided to challenge what was meant by 'agree in principle'. So we had a 40-minute discussion about that. Most boring. The topic of the disabled ramp was unresolved when I left.

But a typical meeting would start with the 'usuals', which was an update on the people centre and chance for any of the working groups (maintenance, gardening etc) to feed back what they were up to if it was important. Then it’s the visitor's slot, where visitors get a chance to speak if they want, then the agenda. Its important to understand that this is where all decisions are made from buying a new computer to who joins, what people centre events should and shouldn't run to who didn't put my washing in the machine when they should, and it always ended on lifts, who is driving where and when.

You were expected to go to a meeting if you could, but stuff just sometimes gets in the way. People with kids would take in turns to go whilst the other babysat and some meetings were more popular than others, usually defined by the agenda.

Another thing I feel I should mention, when someone wants to come for a long stay, or joining period, that letter goes up on the board and everyone reads it. Then when it is discussed (and membership is always prioritised at meetings), all non-members have to leave the meeting. This is so residents have the freedom to speak their feelings openly. The discussion is not minuted.

What was the role of machinery and technology in your life in the commune. I know you mentioned to me the other night that it certainly wasn't 'Primitivist' although to outsiders it may seem that way. Was any friction or debate centred around the use of machinery in the community?

There was absolutely no friction about the need to use machinery. To outsiders there would no doubt be something 'old fashioned' about the way of life. Baking your own bread, growing your own food, chopping wood, heating the entire place with wood burning stoves only etc. However you mention in your preamble the need for a massive shift in culture and life style and part of that shift is embracing these 'life style choices'. I can totally recommend baking your own bread, it is both satisfying and you can make something very different to shop bought.

The 2 tractors were the most important machines we had, we also had a muck spreader, hay bailer, lawn mower and wood splitter; all of which were tractor driven. On top of that we have cars, a milking machine, a 'cheese vat', chain saws, band saws, angle grinders, drills and so on. People had their own computers and there was a house computer, people had their own tellys and there was a house telly (and dvd player and video). There was friction around the booking of the house telly and video and tariffs for computer use.

How was the labour for sustenance divided between everyone in the commune? Was it purely non-hierarchical? Was there any natural division of labour?

This is kind of hard to describe. Hopefully you have a bit of a handle on work-share and the structure of a week. Now people naturally gravitate towards what interests them and where their strengths lie. I was a member of the dairy group, the maintenance group and the land group; though I would often get involved with the wood committee and the garden group. And if your group was going to take on a big job that needed more hands than was usual you would put a call out for assistance in the co-op meeting and even do a sign up sheet for the notice board so you knew who to expect and who was doing what.

Does that explain it?

How did trade with the 'outside world' operate, and how did any profits find their way back into the community?

Yeah, well I've touched on the people centre. This runs over the summer months, roughly May to September and includes the 3 maintenance weeks as well as things like, circus skills week, gay men's weeks, yoga week and so on. During one of these events the group is cooked for and cleaned up after and hosted. All groups have to help with cooks and big wash ups and a sign up system is used but groups tend to like this as they then get the opportunity to mingle with the residents. And basically you get paid a flat hourly rate by the people centre.

Also the People Centre will pay for stuff around the commune like, toilet rolls, cleaning products, tools and equipment needed for maintenance and so on.

How much of each day did you consider yourself to be 'working' or 'playing', were those boundaries blurred in your experience?

Notions of work and play are quite interesting, especially having lived in Laurieston for a while. George Orwell said something along the lines that work is the natural extension of play. A keen Gardener loves their garden but there are times when there are things that have to be done that become work, because it is raining, or you are hungry, or sad or all those things.

At 6.30 in the morning milking the cow never felt like play, with the exception of the interaction with the cows. And some of the bigger, more boring jobs like spreading manure and cleaning the cow byer definitely felt like work.

But most of the time you were working with friends on jobs you'd chosen to do. There was a culture of always having a tea break in the morning and afternoon and a sound attitude was adopted. So although I was working on the roof fitting a new chimney pot, sorting out leaks, sweeping chimneys or whatever, I was also definitely playing. Just getting on the roof was fun scampering up through a sky light. Then you had to get to the part of the roof you wanted to work on, which involved scrambles and jumps. Then there was the fun of being at a height and being able to see everyone else pottering around.

On a wood trip you could work fucking hard, but chopping wood or operating the wood splitter is also fun and again you're with mates. There are times when your waiting for 11, tea break time, but if your working hard everyone is! And chopping wood is weird, I learnt a variety of different axe swings, my favourite being a very macho over the head swing to be used on big tough rounds of wood. You also can tell how a round will split by looking at it, you know if it will split down the middle into 2 halves then off into segments, or if your going to have to chip away at the outside towards the middle. Heck I miss it!

Also the weather has a big impact as to if you are working or playing. One Saturday a lot of the community came together to move a load of hay bails and it was great fun. It was one of those winter days that are cold but the sky is bright blue and the sun is shinning. We formed chains and loaded the trailer. Then we met the tractor at the back field. Due to cow trampling this was a very muddy place and using a chain system again loaded the shed. It was hard to keep your footing. Then we all rode back to pick up more bails on the tractor trailer, which was quite a ride, we'd all been joking and laughing and working, now there was a mix of 4 year old children, teenagers and adults sat on the trailer all clinging on as the driver went as fast as they dared. Amber (my dog) was racing along behind. Again we used a chain to load the trailer and the teenagers all climbed onto the stacked hay and got a lift back to the back field a top this pile of bails. All fun, fun, fun!

As for the day I had to build 3 scaffold towers in the pouring rain, that was work. Yeah there was some climbing and joking, but it was work.

So from this I suppose what you’re suggesting is that 'work' and 'play' can be distinguished by whether they’re enjoyable or not? Would that be a right assumption? Were there elements of work-share that you always considered play whereas someone else always considered it 'work'? And if so, were you happy to take on that element of work-share so they didn't have to? Do you think that doing the things that you considered 'work' was beneficial not just to the commune but for you personally? I guess I’m alluding to some 'character building' shite? Do you believe in that after your experience in Laurieston?

When does play become work and work become play, good god man your obsessed! In the commune you're working to sustain your own way of life, or another's way of life, or yours and another’s way of life. In the society we live in, living there like that is a choice, and it doesn't make much sense going to live somewhere like Laurieston Hall if your not going to enjoy that choice. Or at least to me it makes no sense. So you go with the other 2 members of the maintenance group when it is pissing down with rain and erect 3 scaffold towers ready for maintenance week. You may not want to but it is a duty to yourself and the people you live with. Just like those days your average sucker really doesn't want to go to work but always do anyway because they feel obliged to their company (or organisation, or whatever). I guess part of it is seeing out a commitment. You are in a band, you put on gigs and you do a record label. It don't make you rich but you do it for the most part because you enjoy it, but there must be times when instead you’re committed to something, so you do it.

For me enjoyment is a big part of it. And there are times when I struggle through it but in the end I am glad I did it because it says something about who I am and is my way of making my world and hopefully yours a better place. And I think when I enjoy it, its play and when I don't, it's work. And both contribute to my development as a person and a worker.

So I believe that work and play are distinguishable through enjoyment, but there is more to it.

I wasn't keen on milking cows, but did it to alleviate the pressure from the few who did. Also I really liked the milk, the cheese, the cream and the yoghurt. Others clearly enjoyed working with the cows a lot more, but milking day was always my worst day. On the other hand I really liked making cheese, it was slow and stop-starty, but I liked hanging out in the dairy playing my tunes, reading my book and trying to get everything exactly right. There were others who made cheese who found it boring and would dick off from the dairy whilst the milk was heating and so on, but they still did it and enjoyed the cheese. As a consequence I did get asked to make the cheese a lot.

So I believe some of the work I did was beneficial to me, and some to the commune. The cow milking took the burden off others, it was a tiring day and I didn't really enjoy it. I know a lot more about cows and milk now though, which is interesting but not essential. Making the cheese worked for me, I liked the actual process and wanted to (and did) get better at making it, I liked taking ownership of the dairy, playing my music and reading whilst the milk heated or cooled and monitoring the temperatures exactly. I liked it when people would come and read what I had written in the cheese book because other cheese makers always found it interesting. Also I helped the commune, as other cheese makers who weren't so keen didn't have to do it that often, in the same way I wouldn't milk the cows often but was prepared to.

I believe doing work defines character, says something about the person you are and like all experiences you learn and grow and develop. Being at Laurieston helped me to define my beliefs and I learned a lot; from living with people to how to erect scaffold, form how to bake bread to how to chop wood. When you work, learn and reflect you build yourself and define yourself.

What kind of hobbies or pastimes did you have there, what was the role of technology in this area?

Well, watching TV. Me and two of the teenagers (Gus and Jack) watched the entire box set of Firefly (a sci-fi series) on DVD, match of the day was religiously watched and the second series of Green Wing was a massive social event. The house computer was a god send, I could keep an eye on Leeds via the Cops and Robbers forum, I became hooked to myspace and of course emailing folks. So in this technology was vital and accepted. We also used to play football quite a bit and I read a lot. Game play was also very popular and I played a lot of scrabble and dominos, there were regular bridge games but that wasn't for me. But I guess technology ain't as vital to them kinds of pass times.

The teenagers had X-boxes and played online games.

That's interesting. How much time did you spend on your own in leisure compared to doing your workshare? From the sounds of it workshare sounds like a relatively social exercise in Laurieston?

Work-share is definitely a social event, it is very rare that you work alone and indeed was the only way I socialised with some members of the commune. In my leisure time I spent a lot of time alone, the people close to my age had babies and their evenings would end shorter than mine, also evenings were a time to relax with your family and partner. That’s why I got the 2 teenagers in on Firefly, yes they enjoyed it but their leisure time was as free as mine so we could watch it all together. I spent a lot of leisure time with those two boys we helped to keep each other sane. Their mum thought it was great of me, I thought it was great of them to be prepared to include an old man.

So generally speaking work-share is a social event, on an evening people go into their living groups which are largely definable as family units. I spent a lot of my leisure time alone.

Also did any regular teams develop in the football games? Did you have any big competitions or sports day type events. Did members of the commune entertain each other (like people giving music concerts or putting on plays) or am I overestimating the size of these social gatherings?

When we played football it was often an organised thing so we would invite people from outside the commune as well as inside, this meant there was often a different mix. There was one guy I liked to play with because our styles complemented each other, if we were on the same team we did well, but we didn't insist on it. Also the teenage boys did well together (they were twins) and they were hard to separate. The biggest game of football I had at Laurieston was on a maintenance week before I went to stay there, it was competitive and bruising, for the record my side won and I scored two goals.

During maintenance weeks there was always at least one night round the fire when guitars, juggling equipment, poi and the like would come out and we'd entertain each other. Also over the winter when the people centre was shut we'd organise 'Railway Tavern nights'. We would take over the games room, light the fires and have an evening of fun. Some would just be small and involve the residents, a bit of wine and some game play. A couple were a bit larger and others were invited and usually involved a bit of a sing song.

Also we had 2 big parties whilst I was there with a cabaret room, band room and DJ room where a mix of residents and friends contributed to the nights' entertainment.

What have you taken from the experience, how has your approach to your daily routine altered from before and after your experience there?

Well before I went to live in the commune I had a well paid job managing a youth centre for Leeds City Council, which kept me busy, up early and home late. But it also gave me a large income and I used quite a lot of Drugs on a regular basis, ate out whenever I wanted and bought CDs, clothes and DVDs every week.

Since coming back I don't have a regular job so have less cash, I stop in bed more and get drunk everyday. I'm waiting now but not sure for what. I do voluntary work at a local community resource centre and at young persons project called HP Source. I help out from time to time at a volunteer run social centre called the Common Place and am involved the protest movement. Recently I was involved in a thing called Climate Camp, which campaigned to raise awareness on the issue of global warming and partook in action against the Drax power station, which is the biggest producer of CO 2 gases in the country. I also plan to spend some time at the Faslane nuclear submarine base before the end of the year. You can draw your own conclusions about what changes have taken place and why.

So here's a big one. What made you take the decision to leave Laurieston and if you were to set up a similar land co-op would there be anything you think would run better if done differently? With reference to Laurieston do you attribute the success of the co op to the people or to the structure of the way its run?

Yes the big one. Well I left Laurieston because I had to, my long stay was over. I can go back for another long stay in October with a view to a joining period. However I did leave earlier than I had to (only by a couple of weeks) because I was ready to come back to Leeds, which baffled some of the residents. I don't think I'll go back for a long stay this year as I'm not ready to commit long term to that way of life but hope to pop up over winter when the people centre is shut, because I love the people and the place.

If or when I get involved in a land co-op I will definitely take a lot of Laurieston with me, because I know it works and because it is my experience. I can't say what would run better because I was still on too steep a learning curve after 8 months there. I was lonely, but then how could that be fixed? I guess I wish my girlfriend of the time could have been more welcome to spend a longer time there because it wasn't that fair on either of us. Yes that's what I'd change, visitors’ partners would be welcome in the same way as a visitor.

The success of Laurieston I attribute to a mixture of things. Firstly the size of the place, if you're sick of someone or pissed off, there is loads of room for you without having to be disturbed. The place has changed a lot over the years, not significantly since my links with the place, but from its inception. As a lot of the people there have been committed for such a long time they have developed systems that work both for them and Laurieston. It is definitely organised and it definitely works. I have links with another commune where they only have one meeting a year and though it too is a great place, it is not the same. The success is a blend of time and commitment from the people and the space to be alone, or with your family. It is a labour of love, the work maybe hard but the living is good.